C & G Midi controller for the Organelle


#21

Does it support several USB devices at the same time (by using a USB hub)?


#22

I’ve never tried, is that something the Kenton model can do?


#23

Yes it does. Can you perhaps try this?


#24

Yeah for sure, will try tonight.


#25

@korhanerel, yes you understood my points exactly as I intended.

multiple midi devices, with my beta, it is possible to configure multiple midi devices for use with PD… though not quite as ‘effortlessly’ as Id like - but there has been little demand, and its not really something I need.


Push… yes, this actually was the example I had in mind, as its quite relevant. as its a manufactures controller, an ‘add on’ to an existing product, and whilst popular its not how the majority of Live users use Live (for a variety of reasons), thats just the nature of ‘addons’

anyway, its also interesting, as its popularity, is because of its tight integration with Live, it just works, out of the box, with something beyond midi control - its not just another midi controller.

which brings me back to my point really… for sure , you could adapt patches…
but, adapting patches is not for all, it takes certain skills, time, and also if the developer updates the patch you have to do it all again.

do you not think that many organelle/etc users would expect tighter integration from a C&G badged product? (you even originally mentioned “assigning could be done in mother patch”)?

all just my opinion, which i make, not to say a companion controller is not a good idea, but more to further the discussion about what form it might take.

put another way… is a midi controller enough? or is something with better integration possibilities likely to be more useful/sucessesful? e.g. id argue a display might be useful, that displays meaningful parameters, but that requires yet more ‘software integration’

as a contrast, Axoloti are releasing a companion controller , called Axoloti Control, which i currently have the prototype for… and its fantastic, because… sure it can be a generic midi controller, but it also has tight integration with the axoloti core, e.g. from it you can display/edit all patch parameters, sequence, and even see clipping audio signals.
This to me makes total sense as a product, since its not competing with other controllers, as it does so much more, something which is only possible because its made my the original developer… like Push/Live :slight_smile:


I will say, my views are shaped by my view of where i want to go with Organelle… which I think is slightly different from some.
many use it as an experimental device, where patches are hacked bespoke for their needs.
and whilst i do this too, I’m actually more interested, and focused, at the moment, at using it as a ‘day to day’ instrument, something more akin to an OP-1 … i recognise we are a long way from here, but thats where I’m trying to head.


#26

Seems we share the same kinda view of the Organelle. I use it as a day to day instrument. And it sounds like the direction you’d like to head in is right up my street! I’m not particularly into the idea tinkering for long periods of time in PD myself (whilst appreciative of those who are) - that might change as time goes on. I’m dabbling right now but hopefully that might become less and less necessary/easier somehow.


#27

Actually, I’d like to go back a bit and make my original intention clearer. What I really want is a controller that’s not only knobs and faders and pads and pushbuttons like 99% of the other controllers in the market, but one that has other control elements (joystick), can work with both USB and MIDI (5-pin or minijack) and has the same form factor as an Organelle, so it sits better on my table when I perform. And I see this post as a thought experiment more than planning an actual controller.

Organelle is now my computer on stage, replacing a much more powerful laptop. I like the fact that it cannot do “everything” at the same time, though I am pushing it in that direction sometimes. I was playing in a conducted improvising orchestra in the Jazz Festival Berlin the other day. For that, I needed to be able to reproduce a lot of different sounds/textures at command. Organelle for me is a performance instrument and that’s why I depend so much on controllers, just like I did with the laptop. I play mainly quite experimental, abstract music as a solo artist, as a free improviser and I also play in several jazz outfits, where I also process voice and instruments. All done with one Organelle, a pedalboard with two Eventide H9s (plugin-hosts for the Organelle), one Red Panda Particle, one EHX superego+ and now perhaps one Digitech Obscura Delay. The H9s are controlled by a MIDI controller that goes first through the Organelle for MIDI processing, preset changing, etc. The other pedals have their own knobs and buttons. I also use a KMI QuNeo to play the improvisation instruments on the Organelle. At the moment, I have the QuNeo going to a USB-MIDI Host (specific to KMI devices) and from there into a Faderfox LV2, which can also merge its MIDI input with the MIDI it generates. As the LV2 has only 5-pin MIDI ins/outs, I have to use a MIDI interface to connect it to the Organelle. This system works and it’s not as cumbersome to set up as it sounds, but then, I am dreaming of a C&G hub that accepts USB and MIDI controllers, aggregates them as well as its own control elements into a single controller.

The idea of going beyond MIDI is of course great. No one really likes the low resolution of MIDI data. If this is actually possible with the Organelle, I’d support it, as long as it also accepts external MIDI controllers.

As I said before, I also miss using my Nintendo Wii controllers. I wish I could use them with the Organelle.

So basically, I’d like to have a dedicated controller for the Organelle that also facilitates using several controllers at the same time. Or at least one more controller. If the C&G controller is ever built and has a healthy/reasonable amount and variety of control elements on it, I’d probably only want to attach another controller to that for certain tasks. Oh, and I also love the way C&G controllers look. So does the audience. It’s always the center of attention when people come to me after shows to inquire about my setup :slight_smile:


#28

yeah, I understood that…
I suspect the reason we don’t see these kind of devices on the market, is the requirements for a hub differs so much for each users - some might need lots of midi din I/O, others need usb host, or usb device… some will say it needs to have an integrated mixer, CV i/o… then control, sliders vs knobs vs buttons vs ribbons, x/y pads, joysticks and how many?.. the combinations are frankly endless, and all are bound to some extent by cost implications (or size).

so tricky to design/price a product, so I’ll be interested to see if C&G think its an area they could branch into, and what they can come up with.

(as an aside, Im currently reading Push Turn Move which is a really good summary of all these design choices, a very enjoyable read… and Organelle features in it :slight_smile: )

one other option, which Ive started exploring (due to Axoloti/Bela more than Organelle) is building your own controller / hub, its not that difficult, just a bit of soldering and software skills - perhaps you could collaborate with someone locally, who could build it for you? the parts are freely available, and pretty cheap, so the main cost is the time taken to build it… not as cheap as an ‘off the shelf product’ , but you get exactly what you want.


#29

I’d rather just buy a Faderfox PC4, combine it with the LV2 (which has a joystick, 6 faders, 4 endless rotaries and a bunch of buttons). I’m not a DIY person. I’d rather stay a full-time musician and leave the building to other people who have the enthusiasm/motivation to do that :slightly_smiling_face:

Maybe in the future, I could ask someone for help to desig an Arduino-based MIDI controller for more esoteric control elements like pressure sensors, touchpads, etc.


#30

I just recently assembled my bastl 60knobs. Unfortunately haven’t programmed anything for it yet. 60 knobs is a pretty daunting number! Ended up going the complete opposite direction and have mapped all parameters to only the 4 knobs on the Organelle without pages for my new program…


#31

what I don’t like about such controllers is that the labeling is fixed for a specific instrument, which can sometimes be distracting/confusing. This is somewhat true for the Faderfox LV2 too. And 60 knobs are a bit too many for me :slight_smile:


#32

Just tested the hobbytronics midi host with a USB hub with the following routing:

Organelle<Roland Midi-USB Cable<Hobbytronics Midi Usb Host<Usb Cable<USB hub<USB cable from midi keyboard and Roland Midi-USB to an octatrack.

It didn’t work. Got no midi data coming into the USB host from the hub.
Have people reported success with this same setup using Kenton? Sorry this doesn’t seem to be the answer to your problem.


#33

Thank you for trying this. I do have a temporary solution to my problem so I’m not desparate for a solution. I just would have liked to be able to connect a Korg Nanokontrol too, for faders and buttons. I like Korg’s buttons with their attack and decay settings.

Of course, I could always use an iPad/Lemur combo connected to the Organelle over a iConnect interface, but then, controlling/playing on stage by moving your finger on a glass surface is really problematic. The iPad only really works as an XY controller actually. Knobs are useless. Faders can be useful if they’re really big on the screen.


#34

I’m gonna start using samplr app in shows I think, as an instrument to resample. Produces really cool sound quickly and I actually like the interface a lot.


#35

Samplr has been one of my main instruments for many years. I use it everywhere: free improv, jazz, solo performances, sound design… It’s the greatest iPad app as far as I am concerned. And there is a new update coming. Also works as a great sound source to be processed further by the Organelle/pedals


#36

Totally! Been feeding it to the Morphagene patch recently. Really cool to hear it’s getting an update.


#37

With 3.0, this discussion is not really relevant anymore as now we can use any combination of MIDI controllers with the Organelle.

:slight_smile:


#38

I just installed the new os3 and I had issues when I tried connecting two different MIDI controllers.

I’m using an Axiom61 and a Nanopad2, both connected thru a usb hub.

Does anyone know how to solve this?


#39

ok, now i admit, im confusing myself…
… perhaps i did look at this, anyway, today is another day, so i will need to reinvestigate.

with the current aconnect line in midi config, you could either select
1 in - 1 out, or 2 in - 0 out, 0 in - 2 out.

anyway, i need to dig a bit more, to see why i said the above :wink:


#40

this post is valid for releases prior to 3.1 (beta) , but it all changes from 3.1

if you have more advanced midi needs, including multiple controller support, Id recommend [upgrading to 3.1]
(http://forum.critterandguitari.com/t/organelle-os-3-1-tb-beta)

and then reading my post on 'how to setup advanced midi", which includes a video on how to go beyond basic midi support.


ok, so had a look at what Id done for OS 3.0…

so really there are two areas here
a) Alsa support
b) Extended PD options, which allows more control over PD midi

alsa support

this was added, to support devices which have multiple input ports (usb) which you are unable to address via OSS-midi (the default for pd) , also because alsa is generally a bit more robust.
you can enable this in midi-config.txt , with

usealsa 1;
alsaconfig 28:1 128:0 128:1 28:1;

where the numbers for alsaconfig are two pairs of input and output ,
in this example 28:1->128:0 , 128:1->28:1
you can use this for either 1 in , 1 out, or 2 in -0 out, 0 in -2 out.

I planned to generalise this to N pairs, but as no one pushed it on the beta (and I didnt need it) , it never got done… :frowning: (good reason for users to get involved in the betas if they need something :wink: )

… I could actually address this in a small update, as it basically only needs a change to a script to make this work.

extended pd options

also in OS 3.0 I allow you to specify Pure data command line options, at either a system or patch level,
to do this you create a pd-opts.txt file, and add the command line options.
now, this allows you to add multiple midi devices (and is what I had in mind, when posting before) , however it has a couple of limitations… (thats PD for you :wink: )

first, it only works for OSS devices, for some reason in PD ‘ultimate wisdom’ they didn’t implement it for ALSA.
second, it puts additional midi devices on different midi channels… ie… device 1 = channel 1-16, device 2 = channel 17-32 … this is a bit of a pain, since organelle does not support omni directly from mother host.
(this can all be worked around, with a bit of patching… but its not ‘seamless’)
to do this you need to use the options -midiindev (etc)
e.g. pd-opts.txt

-ossmidi -midiindev 1,2

this will force pd to use ossmidi, and have the first 2 devices as input (you can list as many as you like)

the future

what I do not like is that PD doesn’t support alsa properly, and also its a bit painful for users to discover what their devices are called… so it would be nice to improve this.

the issue was… that doing this from a shell script, was going to be painful…
however, just before the 3.0 release, Owen added some python support for the display (which he used for the wifi) , and I added support for general python launching for utilties … this means we can now create a much more sophisticated midi configuration tool.

so I need to discuss with Owen, but probably what id want to do is, make a small change to 3.0 that will turn the current ‘alsa and midi config’ into something more generalised, that I can then create a tool to cover more use-cases…

(another alternative, may be to consider using jack midi routing, but I need to investigate what that buys us, particular with PDs rather sketchy implementation ;))


Organelle OS 3