Trouble with syncing tempo between Organelle & Op-Z

Hello, I’m trying to sync tempo between the op-Z and Organelle,
but I can’t seem to make it work. All differents patches react the same. Midi seems to be recognized as it shows “midi” next to the tempo on the organelle, but the tempo is jumping between random values between 50 and 65 when it should be 117 (tempo on the OP-Z is 117).
Op-Z is supposed to be the master. Clock out is enabled on OP-Z, midi out disabled or not doesn’t change anything.
Midi In is enabled on the Organelle, set to channel 1. Op-Z is recognized in the midi parameters.
Ther’s no troubles with notes. Op-Z send them to the organelle. Connection is the OP-Z USB cable.
I’m on the latest firmwares on both devices.
Any idea?

this is likely caused by a midi loopback on the clock signal…
I previously found the same with hermod - the clock module is basically the same in all patches, so all patches suffer the issue.

basically what happens is if your OP-z is the clock master, then organelle will receive and use the clock, but it will then send it back to the op-z

you need ONE (doesn’t matter which ;)) of the devices to not do this

in the last release of Orac, I introduced the ability to turn off midi clock output, thus being able to stop the loopback

but perhaps the OP-z has the ability to turn off midi clock input, when it is acting as the master clock

Hello Mark, thank you.
Indeed, the OP-Z has the ability to turn off or on the midi clock in, so of course I did turn off the midi clock in on the op-z. Midi out is also disabled on the master settings of the Organelle. That’s why I find it odd it makes a midi loop…
It seems some paramaters are overriding this settings… I’ll try to see the .json file of the OP-Z. Otherwise I’m stuck with this problem.
Maybe the patches settings override the settings of the Organelle? I think I saw something like that on the forum.

Hello. Somone suggested elsewhere to set the midi channel on the Organelle on 14. It does’nt seem to change anything… Anyone succeeding in syncing tempo on both devices using the op-Z as master?

no as ive stated in previous threads, the midi out disable does not affect midi clock output, which is ‘part of the patch’… if you want to disable this you currently need to alter the clock (aka metro) sub patch.

what you could do to test is, open any patch you want to test…
and the look for the metro subpatch, inside that you will see a bit of code that sends midi out for the clock - just delete that bit of code, and see if your behaviour is corrected.

or just tests with Orac, as that has the necessary change in it.

midi clock messages are system message and so are not specific to midi channel.
(so ignore whoever told you to start changing/filtering channels :wink: )

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Thank you I think it’s the time for digging into Pure Data… I also supect the Op-Z to be faulty, as it’s known to be still full of bugs…
Thank you again Mark for being so willing to help.

no worries … so if you look for master-metronome in the patch, and edit it, it will be something like this:

I say something as there are various versions… anyway the problem with them all is the same
you see at the bottom where Ive marked:

[r 24ppq] -> [248] -> [midi out]

the issue is, this 24ppq is (correctly) generated from both the internal clock or an exernal midi clock in…
but we can see it then sound out a clock message regardless or if its internal or from midi clock in…
hence we get a loop.

what really you need here is a gate to only do this if external clock is not being received.

but for your testing purposes, you can simply delete the midi out initially :slight_smile:

Ok I’ve just a very basic knowledge of how pure data works, but no experience in coding patches in Pure Data. I will try to simply delete the midi out bit. What’s strange is that all the patches I’ve tried behave the same, which would mean they all include this master-metronome subpatch… I’ll let you know how it goes. Thanks a lot for the explanation… One day i’ll be brave and learn how to code a patch (and how to drive a car) :sweat_smile:

This is correct! MIDI Clock is handled at the patch level.

ok that’s odd… I’ve done what Mark suggested, and erased the midi out object in the master metronome sub patch. The tempo value on the organelle is still unstable and half the value of the tempo on the op-z. I’ve made a copy of my patch without the midi out object in the mastermetronome subpatch and tried both patches (with and without the midi out object) and they both behave the same…
Total PD noob question, but I’m suppposed to delete all what’s inside the triangle (in Mark’s photo above) or just the one midi out object? The patch I’m trying to edit is the guitar2arp one. Sorry for the beginner question, but hopefully it will help someone else here…

I’m very sorry to bump this topic but I’m still short on this problem… It behaves exactly the same with or without the midi out object. Meaning the organelle’s tempo jumps between two third and the half of the master clock sent by the Op-Z. And more surprisingly, it behaves the same in Orac 2.0. The clock module shows the midi BPM, but it’s unstable and does not sync. I’ve disabled MIDI IN in Orac of course… I’m in the demo preset. So maybe I’m missing something obvious, or maybe there’s a bug somewhere (more likely in the OP-Z…). My USB C- USB cable is not faulty.
Does anyone succeeds in syncing this two instruments? Or shall I give up and stop bothering you :wink: Cheers!

are you able to drive another piece of gear with the OP-Z to confirm OP-Z is correctly sending MIDI clock as a master? another test would be sending the Organelle a MIDI clock from some other piece of gear, to confirm Organelle is working correctly.

I can confirm that the Organelle can receive midi clock from Logic for example. Works perfectly. I don’t have any other hardware that sends midi clock but the Op-Z unfortunately.

What’s weird is that op-z is sending midi notes correctly (works with the Aquarius patch for example), the problem is only with midi clock… I’ll try to make a factory reset of the OP-Z, but if anyone here could confirm it works with this set up… Thank you!

can Logic receive MIDI clock? you could try sending OPZ clock to Logic

I’ll try that but I’m still quite unsure how to do it simply… Would need a couple of adaptors If I want to send it via my external sound card… OP-Z is known for being a good master sequencer but still full of bugs… Thank you anyway, if anyone here has this set up maybe he or she could confirm if it works!! Cheers

yeah, I do as @oweno suggests,

break this down into 2 steps…
a) can you get Logic to receive midi clock from the OP-Z correctly, does it give you the right tempo?
(if not, then correct this)
b) can you get logic to send midi clock to Organelle correctly, giving you the correct tempo?
(if not correct this)

then try both, so have logic sync to the OP-Z, but sending clock to organelle…

theoretically you can now cut out the middle man (logic)

if doing this doesn’t work, id be using something like MidiMonitor to look at the midi messages going between the OP-z and Organelle… specifically checking to see if there are only clock messages going in one direction (op-z to organelle)

unfortunately, I don’t have a OP-Z to test with, but I use a squarp pyramid and hermod to drive the organelle quite often without any issue.

a) No, I can’t make op-z to send midi clock to Logic. I can receive midi notes from the op-z into logic, I can send start/stop messages, but I can’t use Logic as a slave and Op-Z as master tempo.
I don’t know if there’s a bug or if I’m missing something… I’m connecting op-z and macbook pro via the TE usb c - usb cable. Midi notes are fine, midi clock doesn’t work. I’ve check almost all the paramters both on Logic and Op-Z, but I’m not really a midi wizard… :slight_smile:
b) Yes I can send midi clock from Logic to the Organelle, no problem about that. I do it via a m-audio midi cable…

I’ll check midi monitor thank you. It really bothers me as it’s a strong limitation no to be able to synchronize both devices…

That’s weird. For me the Organelle - Op-Z sync works without a problem or having to change anything inside PD Patches. In the OP-Z settings i have all midi Setting to true except for channel one to active. For midi Routing on the organelle i used thetechnobears method for advanced midi routing (but only because i sometimes use multiple midi devices with the organelle and since midi notes are working this shouldn’t change a thing). Problems only occur for me if i the Organelle trys to sync to AbletonLink and a Midi Clock at the same time.

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Hello thank you for your feedback! Few questions so I can try to resolve my issue.
You’re connecting both with the TE usb c- usb cable? You enable both Midi in and Midi out on both devices? Are you selecting a particular Midi channel? And last question, it works with any patch that receives midi clock, even the drum machines or effects?
I think I won’t avoid a factory reset on the op-z, it may be a software issue, because the Organelle seems to work flawlessly… Thank you!

Yep, i use the TE usb cable that came with the Op-Z to connect both. I have Midi in & Out enabled on both devices. On the Organelle and Op-Z I have enabled Midi In & Out. On my Organelle i have selected the Midi Chanells In: 16 and Out: 15. So far i haven’t encouterd any syncing Problems with different patches (The last ones i remember having used are Orac, Polybeats, Ca Filter, Segment). So i guess it works (at least) with all patches that use the master-metronome.pd. If you do a factory reset be sure to back up your content from the op-z.

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