Orac 2.0

odd that you should have to reinstall orac… cannot think why that would be :confused:
oh, well main thing is its working!

and thank you for noticing :slight_smile:
(theres quite a lot of subtle changes, that won’t even make an change list)

you can do all this already…

what your missing is there are two ways to get midi in!
chain input and ‘active input’ (also called Main Ctrl!)

active input, you usually associate with the organelle keys, but now Orac runs on other platform we need this possibility for midi as well.
(and as you’ve seen on my Orac 2.0 for Organelle video - I often use a ‘proper’ keyboard with the Organelle :wink: )

BUT as with many things in Orac, this is configurable!
if you don’t want to use midi for the active input, just go to the routers parameters
either
a) put main midi channel to something you dont want to use (e.g. 16)
b) set note to OFF

now you will get no midi thru the main/active input

(this is mentioned in the Orac 2.0 overview video … around 14:54 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mywEOeth40Y&t=894s) … thanks to Antonio, there are timings in the YT description :wink: )

I should point out this idea of an active input, is pretty common,
electron have it (auto channel) and so do squarp … its often the default.
the reason is simple, not everyone has controllers that can send on different channels (or do it quickly),
so active/auto means the input is taken to a track that is ‘selected’ on the device.
(this is exactly what Orac is doing)

but for sure, if your driving with a sequencer its not that useful, so just turn if off, or move to a different channel :wink:

then simply change the chain midi parameters on
e.g.
Chain 1 Midi In = ON, In midi ch = 1,
Chain 2 Midi In = ON, In midi ch = 2,
Chain 3 Midi In = ON, In midi ch = 3,

its be really useful if you tried this…
the idea behind the beta, is that I get to hear whats working , whats not, what can be improved…

if everyone just ‘waits for it to be finished’ , then nothing will get improved, since the only inputs is mine… and excluding bugs, I’m fairly happy with it as it is :wink:

1 Like

Really incredible work! Enjoying it a lot so far.
The new routing structure is really intuitive and navigating the module menu and router makes the workflow much faster.
Looking forward to incorporating modulation and the sample management into my modules. It will also be great to be able to include example presets with modules.

I am finding modulation mapping a bit tricky, maybe I’m missing something though.
I’m finding it a bit error prone as there’s no easy way to tell what’s currently sending or the value, and I seem to keep ending up with unexpected mappings, or modulation sources modulating their own parameters etc.

I think this especially an issue with macros. It seems like since the learning happens when modulation is produced, and they only send when they are being tweaked, there is no way to map macros to other parameters of other modules because they end up being mapped to themselves or other parameters of the macro module (though you could use an LFO source on the same bus to do the mapping).

I think I’d prefer if you could explicitly pick which bus was being mapped when turning on mod learn. An ‘unlearn’ option so you could just tweak the param you want to clear all mappings if you don’t remember what it’s being modulated by would also be great!

A couple possible issues with specific modules:

  • It seems like on brds/brds mono the transpose behaviour is reversed
  • I can’t get any sound out of lmnts when playing with the keys (might be the settings, but I tried changing a bunch, and I can get sound with the default parameters in 1.0)

Anyway amazing work, hopefully I have time to try this with the RPI as well this weekend! :grinning:

1 Like

Brilliant work!
I’ll echo @WyrdAl, the modulation mapping isn’t very straightforward, and his suggestions for improvement seems good. I can’t wrap my head around how to unmap parameters, and manage to map modulators to themselves all the time.

Btw small bug: one of the voices in chordroll is stuck on one note. going into the pd sequencer subpatch and changing r croll-root-$1 to r croll-$1-root (same as the other voices) fixed it.

1 Like

Thanks you for all your work, I need to try this soon!
Love that you have give it room to more graphic modules! I think it was the thing keeping me off from the first Orac :slight_smile:

1 Like

thanks guys…

fixed both brds transpose ( I kept noticing this one, and promptly forgetting to fix it :wink: ) and chord roll
lmnts - works for me with the default settings?! (on both my organelles, and mac !?)

modulation learn - definitely more fiddly than id hoped…
as you have kind of spotted, the main thing is, unlike midi learn, you really have to turn off mod learn between new mod assignments.

e.g.
mod learn on
macro 1 to 100% , go change one or more parameters,
mod learn off
sel macro 1 to 0%
mod learn on
macro 2 to 100% , go change one or more parameters,
mod learn off

actually with macros you don’t need to change amount to 100% but you do for lfo.

i’ll admit , I usually use LFOs to learn , with an amount of 10%, and offset of 50%
(so its in the middle)

I could easily stop the ‘self modulation’ as frankly that is not that useful, though its nigh impossible with storing much more info, for me to stop you doing this via feedback looks e.g. m1 -> m2 -> m1 … but thats not as likely…

so yeah, its fiddly as you have to mess with turning off other modulation, and just like midi learn, its easy to forget to turn of learn.
(unfortunately turning it off automatically, stops you quickly assigning to many things, hence why it behaves as it does)

(its a bit easier on a modular with cv, as there you have a knob to twist like midi learn, so its pretty similar to midi learn!)

I dunno, Im loathed to change to mod assignment
its not really the selection of the bus thats the issue - its the selection of the parameter.
(I dont want the user to have to start scrolling thru a list of parameters in every module, thats horrible)

i could do it off the last parameter still,
e.g. you twist a parameter to select, then go to the menu, into ‘mod assign’, then select with the encoder the mod bus (I do not re-use pots in the menus, they are strictly for param values!)
but thats still pretty fiddly

also the similarity with midi learn, means one less thing to confuse users.
(I get alot of questions already, so I dont want to keep adding new ‘concepts’)

a couple of things to note:

  • if you remove/replace a module - its mod assignments are removed
  • if you remove a mod source , its assigned are NOT removed.
    (so you can switch from a macro to an lfo or vice versa)
  • if you put a mod value to zero when assigning to a parameter it will remove that mapping (like midi learn)

so yeah, I’ve been thinking about how to improve both midi learn and mod learn for a while, but I just dont really like the alternatives much… and its pretty tricky with such a limited UI gestures available.

yeah graphics modules I want to be careful with, I need to do a couple more to show developers how I want them to work. (the current ones just show the mechanics, not how to interact with parameters)

its REALLY important that developers use the graphics to render what the parameters are doing, and that they change the underlying parameters to follow any changes they are making . (this is like the VST model for those that know such things) - and also make the underlying parameters available to the user.
(for this reason, its now possible for module code to set a parameters value, and also do an adhoc query for it current value)

if they don’t do this it will become a complete mess…because end-users will then start finding that they load presets and they don’t sound the same, and things like modulation won’t work, and also users on platforms wont be able to use the modules.

this would upset me, as Ive worked hard to make sure that the architecture, ensures that modules act pretty consistently to the user.

but Im sure with some good examples, this should all become clear, and developers will understand the benefits of the ‘right way’ :slight_smile:

2.0 is proving to be such a joy for me go use. It’s remarkable how intuitive of a modular system you’ve created using only a keyboard, 4 knobs and a tiny screen. My partner(who has no interest in music making or synths) remarked last night “wow, all that sound is coming from that one little thing?”

Bravo and thank you!

3 Likes

That’s probably subjective.

I had some luck reverse engineering the PD app by wiring [r oscIn] and [r oscOut] into [print] objects, but couldn’t otherwise identify the “P1”-“P8” prefixes. (I think they’re fed into the ctrl.pd subpatches through abstraction arguments, but right-clicking for properties doesn’t reveal those, and Google isn’t terribly helpful on that front, either)

So, at my current skill level with pd (I’m really more of a max guy), the Lemur template was far more intuitive for me to reverse engineer than the pd one.

…but that probably won’t be true for other members on this particular forum.

so my pd client issues were indeed firewall related. so thats fixed and its a handy thing, although I do echo a lot said here and in the blokas forum about the usability of the client as the standalone interface.

I definitely think there is potential to lay things out differently for the client, but I understand totally what you did here.

here is something I am having trouble with. say I want to have my organelle midi connected with my mpc so I can make midi loops. what is the proper way to do this if I just want to use the organelle keyboard? first of all with one chain, and second of all with three pointing to different tracks on the mpc? is the midiout module necessary?

If I have just a synth on module one, and I try setting, say, Chain 1: Midi Out to channel 1 (the mpc is picking up all midi channels either way), as well as Midi In ON, set channel 2. but I can never seem to get midi out signal this way if I am just playing the synth on the organelle keyboard (this is like the opposite problem than above). I also make sure and set the Main Ctl to channel one and Note is ON.

I guess the main thing for me right now is the “active input” doesnt seem to be working (this is like the opposite problem than above). playing mpc pads does feed midi in like its supposed to.

I can play the orgnelle keys within the ‘midiout’ module and get midi out!

As far as I know, there is no issue with active input - just some can’t get their head around it!

The only midi bug, which I’ve fixed but not released, is that channels 2-16 are monophonic - this is not specific to active input.

Sorry the rest i don’t understand what your trying to achieve.

Please re-read my various explanations of chain midi vs active input - I really cannot think of a way to make it clearer than I’ve already stated multiple times.

( once you’ve read them, hopefully you’ll understand why have midi ch 1 for both a
Chain channel and active input makes no sense )

btw: @miker2049 if your not getting midi outputs, make sure you are using ‘note-thru’ on modules if you are using midi output module (which you probably dont need) , or chain midi output (which is probably what you want) - modules no longer pass notes thru - this is now a function of the router and is off by default. (as its not what most users need/want, and consumes resources)


changes for next beta (b2)

speak now, if you disagree - and have a very good reason :wink:

so Im going to be changing the init (and demo) presets for the next beta
(if you have created presets you may want to consider similar changes)

(where applicable, the following will also default in the appropriate module)

a) Im going to switch to the parallel router as the default for Init
as 3/4 modules in a chain + post process is probably enough for most,
(so generally more useful that serial)

b) midi chain input is going to be ON,
for chain A it will be midi ch 1
for chain B it will be midi ch 2
for chain C it will be midi ch 3

c) active MIDI input , is still be active, but will be moved to midi channel 16

the idea is simply, that a new user can chuck a synth in a1, b1, c1, and just play with midi ch 1, 2, 3
and it will always play regardless of which module they are have selected.
this I think is simplest for most to understand, and then ‘active input’ is more of an ‘advanced’ feature.

Im NOT going to change the Organelle keys active input, it will still follow the selected modules by default, as this IS usually what you want, for a whole range or reasons - and is not generally confusing since its fairly obvious to associate the display with the keys underneath them.

Ive fixed, any (reproducible) bugs that have been reported so far (not many as it happens),
changed a few things from feedback (thank you)
added a few improvements,
and Ive got a couple more little things I want to do (like demo presets),
then I plan to make another beta release.

so IF you have any bugs, that you can reliably reproduce, please speak now!
(its a lot of effort for me to release on all platforms so Im not going to be releasing that frequently!)

2 Likes

Still trying to figure this out: Open an empty init patch. Set to parallel, put BasicPoly (or whatever) in A1. Set chain 1 midi out to channel 1, set all A modules with note-thru, and Main Ctl has main midi channel 1 and note and control ON.

Expected behavior is that when playing organelle keys on A1, I will hear sounds as well as getting midiout.

I hear sounds but my Mio2 will not light up that it is receiving midi messages like this (while working fine in regular Organelle patches as well as within a Midiout module). But even if I put a midiout module on A2 in this same setup, and then play organelle keys on A1 basic poly, I get no midi out even with midi-thru activated everywhere.

In general, it does totally make sense to me to be more focused on Midi-in for external control than midi-out with organelle keys (considering that we are now cross platform).

yeah this won’t work…

so note-thru is about passing from the previous module to the next module.
so a1 has no ‘thru’ to pass the notes on when using the active input. , it can only pass thru from the chain input.(*)

on the organelle keys, you’d have to put the synth on a2, and then have something like seq2 in a1.

for midi , you would use the chain midi in, ch = 1, = on , and then set main ctrl, ch =16 (to get it 'out of the way, to avoid confusion.


(*) im changing this in the next beta so the active input, is merged into the thru line.

1 Like

mod learn on
macro 1 to 100% , go change one or more parameters,
mod learn off
sel macro 1 to 0%
mod learn on
macro 2 to 100% , go change one or more parameters,
mod learn off

Hmm I don’t think it’s working like this for me right now, if I do this the only mapping creating is from the macro param to itself. From taking a look at the source it looks like the assignment is created when the modulation bus is sent a value, not when a parameter is tweaked, so no mapping are created unless the macro value is being changed.

If I do turn mod learn on, tweak a parameter on a module, then move the macro I want to learn, the mapping that gets created is for the right param, but it’s on the macro module ( which doesn’t have that a parameter), rather than the one with param I want to modulate. Ie a mapping for ‘as_cuttoff’ param from analog style is created on the macro module as i tha params.json below:

“m1”: {
“moduleType”: “modulate/macro”,
“params”: {

},
“mod-mapping”: {
“bus”: {
“10”: [“m_p1”, “as_cutoff”]
}
}
},

I think this is happening because the mapping is using the currentModuleID (which changes when you switch to the macro module), but the lastParamID is from the parameter from the previous module.

Just my opinion, but that sound much easier to use to me :slight_smile:
If you made the menu option default to the last bus modulated I think it might end up with fewer clicks needed!

Yeah, I forgot I had seen this - the issue is learn uses last parameter touched , and the macro is a parameter, so as soon as its touched, it becomes last param :slight_smile:

I only added at the last minute the source of the modulation so that’s not properly integrated yet - it’s primary purpose mid term is so that you can mix modulation sources
but i’ll see if I can use it to ‘patch’ this for now…

as for ‘future’ direction,
so for a while, ive been thinking to move to a mod matrix, as I wanted to do things like mixing modulations from different source on one parameter, and also depth.
(e.g. take 10% mod from an lfo, with 5 % from cv/midi)
and whilst possible with learn, it was always going to be too confusing…
but it requires quite a bit of UI work, and I wanted this version out in the wild (due to so many other changes)
so, mod learn was simple, and no UI … so the least amount of ‘throw away’, whilst allow me to see how modulation works in practice - not only lfos, but also cv.

so my current plan is, get this release done - and then look at how Id implement a mod matrix - current idea is that it be kind of a mixture of manual entry and learn/context…
i.e. when entering a new modulation, it would know what you touched last, and it would see what was being currently modulation (e.g. cc, cv, lfo) and offer these as suggestions

but its quite a bit of work, not only UI but some fundamentals, as the to mix modulations of different rates, requires the last mod value from each source to be stored - not terribly difficult but disruptive.
(this is also why currently mod learn is always ‘absolute’ rather than a relative modulation)

at this point I will also stop the modulation being visible on the screen!
this is useful for 2 reason.
a) fast modulation can increase cpu a lot
b) if the UIs parameters is a base, it becomes impossible for the user to alter if its moving!

that does mean I probably need midi to have 2 modes though - since its useful for it to be a full mapping (as it is currently) - but its also potentially useful as modulation!
anyway, that I will flesh out once I start working on it.

4 Likes

Sorry for being spotty in getting back to this work! Turned into not an ideal week for me to have time… But, yes, playing in the seq2 module with a synth going out produces midi out from the organelle keys as I wanted! I definitely like the change for the next beta where this could be a little easier (although again I recognize that this use case (midi out on organelle keys/ctl) is not really as high of a priority than the other way around (midi in to the organelle)).

I second the counter-intuitiveness with modulation, but I just want to say that otherwise the interface you have made is wonderful, truly. Changing gain/midi/whatever on a given module is so quick and I love how easy it is to remember a module on a given parallel chain with the way you have it spread out over the scale (knowing that C1 is always the middle C, B1 is always lower F, etc). One thing I have wished is maybe a separating out of the module specific controls and the “main” ones. Everything fits so nicely right now that I am somewhat hesitant to offer this, but just that if I am in parallel mode and want to go to main ctl, I have to use the Oknob to get all the way over, and this is slightly annoying. It would be nicer, maybe, to consolidate the clock module control (the D# key) with all the global controls, and leave the module gain/ctls in the C# serial/parallel key.

This is a small suggestion, because really otherwise its great interface wise.

I have made some small attempts to try and see the lower-level mec osc data with oscdump to just see whats going on, but haven’t to be able to connect (I should be able to see osc data on port 6000 right?, thats what it says in system log for mec).

Edit: also I dont if this has always been a thing, but Brds-Mono seems to have strange behavior with legato-ey notes? Like playing a new key while still holding an old one will nicely go to the new note, but when I lift off the old note all the sound cuts out even if I am still holding down the new note.

edit edit: I will also try and make some presets like you mentioned earlier technobear! Just saying I heard you there.

Biggest thanks @thetechnobear for this!!!

Apologies so late to the party - excited to get this running.

One question, is the pd49 update on patchstorage working without issue now?
Wasn’t sure if that’s what this meant, or if still need to do Terminal fiddling.

edit: from comments on patch storage looks like it - guess I’ll give it a go!

Rly excited to try out orac 2.0 :slight_smile:

1 Like

yeah, its hopefully a bit better (at least more consistent) in next beta,
but as i said really theres not a ‘quick fix’, i have to go ‘next level’ to make any real headway on this - and im not committing to this during this phase.

using the keyboard is just a shortcut thru the pages, so you can just press the last key on the keyboard, and you will get all the way to the end, so its only a couple of clicks at worst to get to main ctrl


but I like to take an opportunity to explain a bit why this is, as its a really important concept of Orac - yet i recognise its tricky to see/grasp.

so from the outside, it looks like orac is an app, which has a bunch of slots, and a couple of routing options to select how to pass the audio/midi around - but this is not at all true.

the router is ‘just another’ module, like all the others it just happens to control routing of audio, keyboard and midi.
(this means cannot move a parameter which is intrinsic to its function (where the ‘active input’ goes) to another arbitrary module. in the same way I cannot move (e.g.) e.g. braids pitch transpose parameter to the reverb module :wink: )

that may seem like an odd statement… but its true , you can happily not have a routing module in orac - it won’t care its, just the other modules won’t get any notes, and if if they create sound you won’t be able to hear it, because it won’t leave the module!

but why is this important?

well, if Id hard coded it, it be like soldering the cables into the jacks of a modular synth,
you could adjust all the parameters, but apart that it’d be fixed.

… and the deal is, there are actually quite a lot of reasons why you might want to create your own special route.
some ideas, (some of which users have asked about)

  • you have an audio interface, with > 2 input or >2 outputs.
    you can create a router, that allows you to use these, e.g. 4 inputs going to 4 chains, or chains having their own output channels
  • feedback loops
    you can create a router, that has a feedback path , e.g. from one chain, with module slots for the feedback loop.
  • send/return
    create a router which has send/return channels

all these are possible (and ones which are much more creative :wink: ) and you just need to know a little bit of pure data to make them… the sky’s (ok the cpu) the limit.

sure, I could (but im not going to!) , make it prettier , by hardcoding thing, making routing an intrinsic part the orac (c++) code - but it’d be a lot less flexible.
its a similar reason why eurorack module from the outside looks confusing, its power is linked to wearing its skeleton on the outside :wink:

6 Likes

We updated Sequencer3 to the new orac. Syncs the recorded time to the master tempo, overdub, and slot storage. ::))!!

https://patchstorage.com/u-seq3-odub-for-orac/

6 Likes

@thetechnobear Fantastic work! Orac 1.0 became my main tool on organelle and Orac 2.0 looks like a much more intuitive and even more flexible one. Thanks so much… crazy to think you did all this on your spare time.

Although I think I got myself into a bit of a pickle. I was playing with the modulators, trying out a few things as I’m not too familiar with the mod learning action and as I was trying to assign a second modulator to my set up it looks like it started to conflict with the first and my effect (reverb) went into a mad feedback and the organelle started to act really slowly which made it hard to fix. When I restarted the machine it was still acting the same way so I decided to trash the whole orac folder and install it again and what I got was a black screen. What would be your recommended way of removing it clean and re-installing orac?

I looked at the json file and removed the code that was referring to my old preset, but the only update on my situation was that I could now see the top bar on the screen although the buttons/knobs seemed completely unresponsive.

Organelle works fine, it’s just the orac 2.0 that’s acting this way. Any help would be greatly appreciated and sorry for the annoying question!